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The RVer's Open Forum / TECHNICAL RV HELP / Leans too much-wife gets seasick

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Jim M
User ID: 7399413 Sep 27th 3:59 PM
I have an 89 allegro 27' on a p30 chasis. it is stock, haven't done anything to suspension yet. This thing goes down the road like a boat and rolls and leans as you go. I need to tighten it up. I plan to put on bilsteins but what else should I do to tighten up. Has original tires which I will replace-any thoughts on a type that might help this problem?

Fred
User ID: 1516194 Sep 28th 12:31 AM
I was afraid that someone would ask, but I could not remember the exact sequence, so I had to sort through my Hotlist (bookmarks) to find the source.

The following quote is from: http://www.michelin.com/us/eng/tire/guide/lesson4.html

"DOT Markings
Essentially the DOT marking serves as the tire's fingerprint. DOT signifies that the tire complies with U.S. Department of Transportation Tire Safety Standards, and is permitted for highway use. For example refer to the following markings: DOT M5H3
459X 064. The first letter and number following DOT designate the tire's manufacturer and plant code. The third, fourth and fifth number and letter, 59X, is the tire size code which is an optional manufacturers code that identifies the tire size and other specific characteristics of the tire. The final three numbers denote when the tire was produced, with the first two indicating the week, and the last number indicating the year (064 indicates the tire was built in the 6th week of 1994)."

Since no tire should be out there that is over 10 years old, the one digit field for the year is O.K.

Fred

Mike - Moderator
Moderator
User ID: 0199184 Sep 28th 9:28 AM
Re. Fred's comment - "Since no tire should be out there that is over 10 years old, the one digit field for the year is O.K."

Jim's tires are probably going to have DOT date codes of something like XX8 or XX9. If he didn't already know that the tires were original he might assume that they were made in '98 or '99 rather that '88 or '89. In some cases those tires could actually be from the '70s.

The DOT is aware of the problem, and so are the manufacturers, but no one is doing anything to change it.

Consumer beware. When in doubt, INSPECT. If still in doubt, REPLACE!

Mike
RVChem.net

William
User ID: 0025534 Sep 28th 12:02 PM
Read through this thread with much interest.

Mike-Moderator,
mentioned air bag inflation pressure. Where do you find the correct pressure for the front air bags?
The small manual that came with the P-30 says at least 60 lbs but not how much above that or some kind of chart to follow.
I have a 1984 Winnebago on a P-30 chassis.

Another question where do you find the recommended tire pressure for Bridgestone tires?
Have gone to the web and Bridgestone/Firestone and could not find a chart that showed tire size, vehicle weight and pressure recommended.

Should the tire side walls bow out or should the pressure be high enough to keep the side walls from bowing out? The 8R19.5 duals seem to bow out more than my front 245 R70 /19.5 tires.

I installed Bilsten shocks all way around and a IPD front sway bar, plus the neopreme mounts for the original rear sway bar. On the older P-30 chassis, I had to have the rear shock frame mounts welded as they are only spot tacked and the Bilsten shocks apply to much force and tend to break the mounting bolt where it mounts to the frame.
The rear bar is 1.75 diameter and plenty stiff. The old front sway bar is 1.25 inches diameter and the IPD bar is 1 5/8 inches diameter. Does not sound like much, but it sure is bigger and heavier.

I feel any RV with a basement needs the IPD sway bar. This type RV is higher and has more weight in the upper part of the vehicle. This creates more upper forces as you turn at highway speeds.

I see RV's going down the road leaning to one side. I feel this affects ride and handling is this true?
I keep my RV level. Use the front and rear air bags to compensate for lean. Some time I have to shift personal items to level out.

Please pass on any thoughts or ideas.

Thanks !!!

Mike - Moderator
Moderator
User ID: 0199184 Sep 28th 12:41 PM
Whew!

The Bridgeston truck tire inflation guide can be found at http://www.trucktires.com/ . Click on 'Technical Information' and then on 'Load/Inflation Tables'.

Of value also is the Bridgestone Tire and Wheel Primer at http://www.trucktires.com/techinfo.htm . You can find a load/inflation table from there also.

The Michelin load/inflation guide can be found at http://195.154.250.226/truck/rv.htm . Just pick your tire from the several selections and then go to 'Load & Pressure'.

P-30 air bag pressure: We discussed this at some length here about a year or so ago. Although none of us could find a GM air bag inflation guide we were able to come up with the following on our own:

16,000# GVWR chassis = 5,500# front axle = 90 psi
14,800# GVWR chassis = 5,300# front axle = 70 psi
14,500# GVWR chassis = 5,000# front axle = 50 psi
12,300# GVWR chassis = 4,300# front axle = 40-50 psi

Rear air bag air pressures were not specifically determined but, if I remember correctly, we decided that the best thing to do was to start with the same psi as the fronts and then adjust upward on each side for level and best ride.

Installing Bilstein shocks on older P-30 chassis; Yes, it is necessary to weld the new rear shock mounts, just as William found. This information is provided by Bilstein in their instructions and is a normal requirement for the more heavy duty shock.

Radial tires do have more sidewall "bow" (flex) than bias ply tires. Weighing your rig and adjusting the air pressure accordingly will assure proper inflation. Different tire brands and sizes may well show a different "bow" even at the same air pressure. Different ply ratings will make the effect even more noticeable.

Lord, it's amazing what you can learn on the RVer's Open Forum!

Mike
RVChem.net

Fred
User ID: 1516194 Sep 29th 10:39 AM
Mike has a good point in that I forgot about tires made in the19'80's. They shouldn't be out there, but there will someone who doesn't know the true age of a tire. I didn't know how to determine that at first. Once I did, those tires came off - fast. Mike's last comment is the most important of all ---INSPECT. Some tires will age faster than others, depending on a lot of things, so above all else look for cracking , wear patterns, etc.

These BBS's are great in getting and passing along knowledge.

Fred

Karl Dec 3rd 7:32 PM
Have Allegro '84 12800 gvw. 27 ft. Owners manual (from Tiffin) states as follows:" Air Bags- Air pressure may be increased or decreased to adjust vehicle trim and minimize crash through on large road bumps or depths. Inflation pressure must be maintained between 50 psi min. and 75 psi Maximum. Failure to maintain air in in the bags will result in an out of alignement condition and will cause the front tires to wear out in about 2000 miles". The word "depths" seemingly has no meaning in this instance. I run Bridgestone 230 Vsteels at 70 psi. Handles well. Hope this helps.
Karl

Hershel
User ID: 9649143 Apr 18th 11:01 AM
I have a problem with steady cross winds. Every time there is any type of cross wind and it does not take much. I have to hold the stearing wheel into the wind. After a period of time this get's very tiring. I'm looking for any experence or help in this matter. I own a 95 Winn. Adventurer 32 ft on a F53. I've put new bilstein shocks on.
Added a IPD sway bar in the rear. New Michelin tires. Had the rig weighted and the tire inflation is correct. The tires were replaced with the same tires that Winn sent it out on. I've also added a Safty-Plus-steer.
Whould air bags help. Maybe a Supersteer bellcrank?
As you can see I am out of Ideals.

KOG
User ID: 1655274 Apr 18th 3:37 PM
Nothing is going to stop the tendency to pull under a steady crosswind except a lower profile heavier vehicle - such as a large car. Any very large, relatively light (relative to side area) vehicle will be wind sensitive. And the further that the center of aerodynamic pressure is located ahead of the center of gravity the more sensitive the vehicle will be. Thus a nose heavy FWD car will be rather insensitive to wind. A tail heavy MH with huge side area will be sensitive. I'd like to pursuade my Chieftan (P30) to drive like one of my Caravans, but it'll never get that good. If I can just get the thing to track straight with no wind I'll be satisfied that it's vastly improved over stock.

charlie
User ID: 0909594 Jul 2nd 1:25 AM
Herschel, reference your comment of april 18: We once owned a 95' Adventurer 32' w/Ford chassis and we solved the crosswind problem by buying a diesel coach <grin>.

But seriously, we did the same things to our Adventurer that you have done (iPd, Bilsteins) except we did not have the Safety-Plus. The thing that made the biggest improvement in handling crosswinds was the addition of a Davis TruTrac bar. It worked out just great and took out all the looseness out of the chassis. You can drive it as fast you dare. At $332 (CW) it is well worth the money. Let us know how it works out.
Charlie in San Diego

Hershel
User ID: 9760743 Jul 2nd 7:36 AM
Charlie
Thanks for the reply. That's just what I did.
Put it on last month and took it on a 1600 mile road trip. The thing drove like a new motor home.
Along with the Banks system there is no comparison. I thank we may even hang on to it for a few more years.
Buy the way which diesel coach did you buy?

Sunnie
User ID: 0108854 Jul 15th 9:22 PM
I had the worst feeling as I read all of these post until I got to Charlie's post. He has made me feel so much better about my decision to have a Davis TruTrac installed on my 34' 1996 class A Ford along with Bilstien shocks. Had a terrible experience with a violent side to side shimmy when going over a rough road! Scared the beegeebers out of me!!
Thanks for making that point, Charlie. Everyone I have talked to that has the Davis installed has given it very high marks for stopping the front end problems and the wind and truck air problems.
I will let you know how it works out with mine, as I am about to head to Canada for a vacation...

Jerry
User ID: 9906923 Jul 15th 10:00 PM
We have a 1992 Pace Arrow 33 foot. It's equipped with Bilstiens, Michelin's inflated to 80 PSI. Davis TruTrac, GV Aux trans, Banks Power back and trans-command. This coach handles and rides like a dream, all speeds, but we cruise at 60 most of the time. Towing a 1995 Ford Escort, 2381 Lbs. Best of luck with your upgrade to Bilstien's and Davis TruTrac. Regards, Jerry

DON G
User ID: 9948493 Aug 5th 8:45 PM
Whats the concensus on Bilstein shocks on the Ford F53 chassis? Some say they are too harsh and will make my hard ride even harder. Gotta buy soon so let me know.

jdo
User ID: 2839494 Aug 6th 11:14 AM
I just put Bilstein's on my 99 georgetown and I can tell the difference in the ride, much easier on the bumps.

99 georgetown v10, 92 accord toad

Marvin P
User ID: 9990163 Aug 22nd 10:59 AM
I have a 1991 xplore 25ft that wanders just like the tail wagging the dog. New tires, shocks, front end alignment, weight distribution ect. with no improvment. Would a Davis TruTrac help solve the problem. I do not experience any roll.
This is on a Dodge D-350 Front with a Dane 60 axel leaf springs assisted by leaf overloads.

Tom T
User ID: 7329463 Aug 27th 4:05 PM
I have a 33 Foot Southwind on an F53 and handling
is terrible. I have installed the Bilsteins, the
Steer-Safe, the Davis Tru-track bar and the Air
Lift. I've had the front end aligned and installed
new Michelins. I notice some improvement but probably not a thousand dollars worth. The Tru-Track seemed easy enough to install but I wonder if it needs to be adjusted some more. Does
anybody have any experience with the Tru-track bar?

Jeff B
User ID: 0074284 Aug 27th 9:56 PM
Marvin:
Does the wandering get worse as speeds increase, by highway speed hard to keep in your lane? How tight is the steering? I have a 1989 Fleetwood 23 ft on Ford E350, was really scary to drive. Did all the weighing, measuring, changing parts etc. problem turned out to be not enough (!) play in the steering box, was overadjusted. Backed off sector nut enough to just give a perceptable free play in the straight ahead position, and lock the locknut. Hard to beleive was the same rig, went on 5500 KM trip with it, ok to drive now. Not sure if Dodge uses similar steering, but suspect so. Good luck

Keith in PA
User ID: 9495963 Apr 5th 7:40 AM
Just put 6 new tires and Bilsteins on my Fleetwood Class C...what a difference! BUT...after reading this entire thread, I'm not sure if I want to invest in a steering assistance device or not. I was looking at the Steer Safe and the Safe T Plus items, but not sure if they are worth the money on a 1989 27' class C? Any input is appreciated.

jd
User ID: 8798943 Apr 5th 8:59 PM
Keith, if your C-Coach is on a Ford, it's about like our '83. Steering (and tracking/resistance to trucks/crosswinds) improved dramatically after we did three things: 1. Adjust slack out of steering box; 2. Replace front swaybar bushings; 3. Adjust toe to specs (had been toed out, should be zero or slightly in. Very inexpensive and made a huge difference. We have 97,000 miles so yours may need less of the things we needed to do. God Bless, jd

Back 20 Messages Next 20 Messages

Jim M User ID: 7399413	Sep 27th 3:59 PM I have an 89 allegro 27' on a p30 chasis. it is stock, haven't done anything to suspension yet. This thing goes down the road like a boat and rolls and leans as you go. I need to tighten it up. I plan to put on bilsteins but what else should I do to tighten up. Has original tires which I will replace-any thoughts on a type that might help this problem?
Fred User ID: 1516194	Sep 28th 12:31 AM I was afraid that someone would ask, but I could not remember the exact sequence, so I had to sort through my Hotlist (bookmarks) to find the source. The following quote is from: http://www.michelin.com/us/eng/tire/guide/lesson4.html "DOT Markings Essentially the DOT marking serves as the tire's fingerprint. DOT signifies that the tire complies with U.S. Department of Transportation Tire Safety Standards, and is permitted for highway use. For example refer to the following markings: DOT M5H3 459X 064. The first letter and number following DOT designate the tire's manufacturer and plant code. The third, fourth and fifth number and letter, 59X, is the tire size code which is an optional manufacturers code that identifies the tire size and other specific characteristics of the tire. The final three numbers denote when the tire was produced, with the first two indicating the week, and the last number indicating the year (064 indicates the tire was built in the 6th week of 1994)." Since no tire should be out there that is over 10 years old, the one digit field for the year is O.K. Fred
Mike - Moderator Moderator User ID: 0199184	Sep 28th 9:28 AM Re. Fred's comment - "Since no tire should be out there that is over 10 years old, the one digit field for the year is O.K." Jim's tires are probably going to have DOT date codes of something like XX8 or XX9. If he didn't already know that the tires were original he might assume that they were made in '98 or '99 rather that '88 or '89. In some cases those tires could actually be from the '70s. The DOT is aware of the problem, and so are the manufacturers, but no one is doing anything to change it. Consumer beware. When in doubt, INSPECT. If still in doubt, REPLACE! Mike RVChem.net
William User ID: 0025534	Sep 28th 12:02 PM Read through this thread with much interest. Mike-Moderator, mentioned air bag inflation pressure. Where do you find the correct pressure for the front air bags? The small manual that came with the P-30 says at least 60 lbs but not how much above that or some kind of chart to follow. I have a 1984 Winnebago on a P-30 chassis. Another question where do you find the recommended tire pressure for Bridgestone tires? Have gone to the web and Bridgestone/Firestone and could not find a chart that showed tire size, vehicle weight and pressure recommended. Should the tire side walls bow out or should the pressure be high enough to keep the side walls from bowing out? The 8R19.5 duals seem to bow out more than my front 245 R70 /19.5 tires. I installed Bilsten shocks all way around and a IPD front sway bar, plus the neopreme mounts for the original rear sway bar. On the older P-30 chassis, I had to have the rear shock frame mounts welded as they are only spot tacked and the Bilsten shocks apply to much force and tend to break the mounting bolt where it mounts to the frame. The rear bar is 1.75 diameter and plenty stiff. The old front sway bar is 1.25 inches diameter and the IPD bar is 1 5/8 inches diameter. Does not sound like much, but it sure is bigger and heavier. I feel any RV with a basement needs the IPD sway bar. This type RV is higher and has more weight in the upper part of the vehicle. This creates more upper forces as you turn at highway speeds. I see RV's going down the road leaning to one side. I feel this affects ride and handling is this true? I keep my RV level. Use the front and rear air bags to compensate for lean. Some time I have to shift personal items to level out. Please pass on any thoughts or ideas. Thanks !!!
Mike - Moderator Moderator User ID: 0199184	Sep 28th 12:41 PM Whew! The Bridgeston truck tire inflation guide can be found at http://www.trucktires.com/ . Click on 'Technical Information' and then on 'Load/Inflation Tables'. Of value also is the Bridgestone Tire and Wheel Primer at http://www.trucktires.com/techinfo.htm . You can find a load/inflation table from there also. The Michelin load/inflation guide can be found at http://195.154.250.226/truck/rv.htm . Just pick your tire from the several selections and then go to 'Load & Pressure'. P-30 air bag pressure: We discussed this at some length here about a year or so ago. Although none of us could find a GM air bag inflation guide we were able to come up with the following on our own: 16,000# GVWR chassis = 5,500# front axle = 90 psi 14,800# GVWR chassis = 5,300# front axle = 70 psi 14,500# GVWR chassis = 5,000# front axle = 50 psi 12,300# GVWR chassis = 4,300# front axle = 40-50 psi Rear air bag air pressures were not specifically determined but, if I remember correctly, we decided that the best thing to do was to start with the same psi as the fronts and then adjust upward on each side for level and best ride. Installing Bilstein shocks on older P-30 chassis; Yes, it is necessary to weld the new rear shock mounts, just as William found. This information is provided by Bilstein in their instructions and is a normal requirement for the more heavy duty shock. Radial tires do have more sidewall "bow" (flex) than bias ply tires. Weighing your rig and adjusting the air pressure accordingly will assure proper inflation. Different tire brands and sizes may well show a different "bow" even at the same air pressure. Different ply ratings will make the effect even more noticeable. Lord, it's amazing what you can learn on the RVer's Open Forum! Mike RVChem.net
Fred User ID: 1516194	Sep 29th 10:39 AM Mike has a good point in that I forgot about tires made in the19'80's. They shouldn't be out there, but there will someone who doesn't know the true age of a tire. I didn't know how to determine that at first. Once I did, those tires came off - fast. Mike's last comment is the most important of all ---INSPECT. Some tires will age faster than others, depending on a lot of things, so above all else look for cracking , wear patterns, etc. These BBS's are great in getting and passing along knowledge. Fred
Karl	Dec 3rd 7:32 PM Have Allegro '84 12800 gvw. 27 ft. Owners manual (from Tiffin) states as follows:" Air Bags- Air pressure may be increased or decreased to adjust vehicle trim and minimize crash through on large road bumps or depths. Inflation pressure must be maintained between 50 psi min. and 75 psi Maximum. Failure to maintain air in in the bags will result in an out of alignement condition and will cause the front tires to wear out in about 2000 miles". The word "depths" seemingly has no meaning in this instance. I run Bridgestone 230 Vsteels at 70 psi. Handles well. Hope this helps. Karl
Hershel User ID: 9649143	Apr 18th 11:01 AM I have a problem with steady cross winds. Every time there is any type of cross wind and it does not take much. I have to hold the stearing wheel into the wind. After a period of time this get's very tiring. I'm looking for any experence or help in this matter. I own a 95 Winn. Adventurer 32 ft on a F53. I've put new bilstein shocks on. Added a IPD sway bar in the rear. New Michelin tires. Had the rig weighted and the tire inflation is correct. The tires were replaced with the same tires that Winn sent it out on. I've also added a Safty-Plus-steer. Whould air bags help. Maybe a Supersteer bellcrank? As you can see I am out of Ideals.
KOG User ID: 1655274	Apr 18th 3:37 PM Nothing is going to stop the tendency to pull under a steady crosswind except a lower profile heavier vehicle - such as a large car. Any very large, relatively light (relative to side area) vehicle will be wind sensitive. And the further that the center of aerodynamic pressure is located ahead of the center of gravity the more sensitive the vehicle will be. Thus a nose heavy FWD car will be rather insensitive to wind. A tail heavy MH with huge side area will be sensitive. I'd like to pursuade my Chieftan (P30) to drive like one of my Caravans, but it'll never get that good. If I can just get the thing to track straight with no wind I'll be satisfied that it's vastly improved over stock.
charlie User ID: 0909594	Jul 2nd 1:25 AM Herschel, reference your comment of april 18: We once owned a 95' Adventurer 32' w/Ford chassis and we solved the crosswind problem by buying a diesel coach <grin>. But seriously, we did the same things to our Adventurer that you have done (iPd, Bilsteins) except we did not have the Safety-Plus. The thing that made the biggest improvement in handling crosswinds was the addition of a Davis TruTrac bar. It worked out just great and took out all the looseness out of the chassis. You can drive it as fast you dare. At $332 (CW) it is well worth the money. Let us know how it works out. Charlie in San Diego
Hershel User ID: 9760743	Jul 2nd 7:36 AM Charlie Thanks for the reply. That's just what I did. Put it on last month and took it on a 1600 mile road trip. The thing drove like a new motor home. Along with the Banks system there is no comparison. I thank we may even hang on to it for a few more years. Buy the way which diesel coach did you buy?
Sunnie User ID: 0108854	Jul 15th 9:22 PM I had the worst feeling as I read all of these post until I got to Charlie's post. He has made me feel so much better about my decision to have a Davis TruTrac installed on my 34' 1996 class A Ford along with Bilstien shocks. Had a terrible experience with a violent side to side shimmy when going over a rough road! Scared the beegeebers out of me!! Thanks for making that point, Charlie. Everyone I have talked to that has the Davis installed has given it very high marks for stopping the front end problems and the wind and truck air problems. I will let you know how it works out with mine, as I am about to head to Canada for a vacation...
Jerry User ID: 9906923	Jul 15th 10:00 PM We have a 1992 Pace Arrow 33 foot. It's equipped with Bilstiens, Michelin's inflated to 80 PSI. Davis TruTrac, GV Aux trans, Banks Power back and trans-command. This coach handles and rides like a dream, all speeds, but we cruise at 60 most of the time. Towing a 1995 Ford Escort, 2381 Lbs. Best of luck with your upgrade to Bilstien's and Davis TruTrac. Regards, Jerry
DON G User ID: 9948493	Aug 5th 8:45 PM Whats the concensus on Bilstein shocks on the Ford F53 chassis? Some say they are too harsh and will make my hard ride even harder. Gotta buy soon so let me know.
jdo User ID: 2839494	Aug 6th 11:14 AM I just put Bilstein's on my 99 georgetown and I can tell the difference in the ride, much easier on the bumps. 99 georgetown v10, 92 accord toad
Marvin P User ID: 9990163	Aug 22nd 10:59 AM I have a 1991 xplore 25ft that wanders just like the tail wagging the dog. New tires, shocks, front end alignment, weight distribution ect. with no improvment. Would a Davis TruTrac help solve the problem. I do not experience any roll. This is on a Dodge D-350 Front with a Dane 60 axel leaf springs assisted by leaf overloads.
Tom T User ID: 7329463	Aug 27th 4:05 PM I have a 33 Foot Southwind on an F53 and handling is terrible. I have installed the Bilsteins, the Steer-Safe, the Davis Tru-track bar and the Air Lift. I've had the front end aligned and installed new Michelins. I notice some improvement but probably not a thousand dollars worth. The Tru-Track seemed easy enough to install but I wonder if it needs to be adjusted some more. Does anybody have any experience with the Tru-track bar?
Jeff B User ID: 0074284	Aug 27th 9:56 PM Marvin: Does the wandering get worse as speeds increase, by highway speed hard to keep in your lane? How tight is the steering? I have a 1989 Fleetwood 23 ft on Ford E350, was really scary to drive. Did all the weighing, measuring, changing parts etc. problem turned out to be not enough (!) play in the steering box, was overadjusted. Backed off sector nut enough to just give a perceptable free play in the straight ahead position, and lock the locknut. Hard to beleive was the same rig, went on 5500 KM trip with it, ok to drive now. Not sure if Dodge uses similar steering, but suspect so. Good luck
Keith in PA User ID: 9495963	Apr 5th 7:40 AM Just put 6 new tires and Bilsteins on my Fleetwood Class C...what a difference! BUT...after reading this entire thread, I'm not sure if I want to invest in a steering assistance device or not. I was looking at the Steer Safe and the Safe T Plus items, but not sure if they are worth the money on a 1989 27' class C? Any input is appreciated.
jd User ID: 8798943	Apr 5th 8:59 PM Keith, if your C-Coach is on a Ford, it's about like our '83. Steering (and tracking/resistance to trucks/crosswinds) improved dramatically after we did three things: 1. Adjust slack out of steering box; 2. Replace front swaybar bushings; 3. Adjust toe to specs (had been toed out, should be zero or slightly in. Very inexpensive and made a huge difference. We have 97,000 miles so yours may need less of the things we needed to do. God Bless, jd